Curse

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 09, 2008, 11:18 AM // 11:18

The inspiration line should be buffed.

the_jos · Jan 09, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

To you guys claiming mesmers don't need buffing: try playing one. If you can't be bothered to powerlevel one in PvE, at least try one out in RA.

While I don't play mesmer in RA anymore I do give advice to others from time to time. And most of the time I give them some surgestions they come back with a smile on their face.
It's more about the mindset of people and not the actual profession/skills.

When looking at PvE, mesmers could use a buff, but that's more related to the way PvE functions and not the profession itself.

Yesterday for example I was opening chests in the Ring of Fire mission NM for a while.
The team I took: Me (mesmer), 2x para hero, 1x Dslash warrior, 2 warrior hench and 2 monk hench.

The enemy mobs there are relatively small, so would be good for a mesmer.
However, since the foes don't kite and are no real danger for such a team, there is no need to run some kind of shutdown or disabling.

On the other side there are the large mobs in the various areas where some kind of AoE nuking (prefer armor ignoring) makes more difference then single target shutdown.

The best place for the current mesmer (or assassin) is the situation where a mid-sized balanced group is encountered and casters cannot be balled/blocked as easily to get nuked.
And where going brute-force for those targets would expose the back-line.
But this would require too much work on AI side, team positioning and it would upset a lot of people used to a certain playing style (yes, tank/nuker/healer again).

A good example of such a place is the first assault on the turtles in Gyala.
There are several groups arriving from several points and monks in several of those teams.
If the siege turtles were not there, most teams would have a hard time without a mesmer or an assassin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by various

...Chaos Storm buffing...

Consider the impact of a more powerfull CS on some HA maps.
Or at VoD or tight combat in GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

The inspiration line should be buffed.

Though I do agree here a bit, the inspiration line was nerfed partly because of 'abuse' by other professions.
Moving some to FC and buffing then could be a solution or keeping in inspiration and buffing in slightly faster recharge with higher FC could solve this.
However, in my opinion a mesmer should not rely on spamming spells, making e-mgt less of a problem.

Arkantos · Jan 09, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

To you guys claiming mesmers don't need buffing: try playing one.
If you can't be bothered to powerlevel one in PvE, at least try one out in RA.

Balance and RA go together like....well, two things that shouldn't go together.

I think mesmers are fine tbh.

niek2004 · Jan 09, 2008, 12:34 PM // 12:34

mesmers suck in PVE? those sunspear PVE skills can nuke quite well....signet of illusions+arcane echo + ebon vanguard assasin support is also quite good, in high level areas where mobs have lots of armor a mesmer can outnuke a ele...easy

Uber Mass · Jan 09, 2008, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Mesmers be fine the way they are imho

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 09, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

To you guys claiming mesmers don't need buffing: try playing one.

I like how one move by a mesmer (or a succession of moves) in PvP can force wipes and win matches. Really, all ANet need to do imo is buff some of the inspiration spells so monks can bring other types of energy management instead of GolE.

xvix83 · Jan 09, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical nessAL

Energy Surge - Target foe and all nearby foes loses 8 energy, for each energy lost on target foe that way, all nearby foes takes 12 dmg.
Discuss.

Overpowered...might become one of those farming skill like splinter barrage...and too powerful in PvP.

Eg. one mob of 10 clustered together =
(8 x 12) x 10 = 960armour ignoring dmg...

DarkNecrid · Jan 09, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

To you guys claiming mesmers don't need buffing: try playing one.
If you can't be bothered to powerlevel one in PvE, at least try one out in RA.

Um...cause RA is the definition of high level PvP

oh wait

quickmonty · Jan 09, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

To you guys claiming mesmers don't need buffing: try playing one.
If you can't be bothered to powerlevel one in PvE, at least try one out in RA.

Have one.
Leveled by playing the game. Completed all three chapters.
They don't need buffing.

Shadow Slave · Jan 09, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical nessAL

Ineptitude - this spell now interrupts the foes attack aswell.

Just a small note which may have already been mentioned -

Interrupting the foes attack goes against the mechanics of this skill. The foe needs to attack in order to suffer the dmg/blind.

Interrupting the attack would basically be a warning to anyone with half a sense of reaction to stop attacking -thus not suffering the dmg/blind.

U C?

When I play Mesmer (..and I have for over 2 years now) - it is the Illusion line I find to be the most lacking.

Inspiration and more so Domination, always leaves me spoilt for choice. I normally end up wanting to run Shutdown/Anti-melee/Anti Caster & E-denial all at the same time.

The options are fantastic in my opinion, and obviously trying to do about 17 things at once with 8 skills is not the way to go.

I like speccing to perform a specific role, and going out there (be it PVP or PVE) and doing my job. If that job is performed well, then it normally goes unnoticed by your average team....and I wouldnt want it any other way.

Despite the number of illusion skills, it feels like: degen degen degen, and the odd bit of anti melee. I never feel spoilt for choice...and my necro can perform that role far more effectively, without boring me to death.

Hmm...what was my point again?

Illusion - bad - lacks variety

Insp/Dom - good times.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 09, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

ESurge is already very strong against Archers at VoD, we don't need it any stronger.

Stormlord Alex · Jan 09, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

This thread made me lol.

mystical nessAL · Jan 09, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by xvix83

Overpowered...might become one of those farming skill like splinter barrage...and too powerful in PvP.

Eg. one mob of 10 clustered together =
(8 x 12) x 10 = 960armour ignoring dmg...

So? I was just thinking of loseing energy from all foes, the dmg ignored from the skill is active right now...

Mitchel · Jan 09, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

...Spiteful Spirit (what's it doing in Curses when it's clearly the bigger brother of Empathy? In return necros get Epidemic, which is based on conditions and therefore doesn't belong with mesmers.)
.

Totally agree with that, I've had the same thought since Prophecies.

Dkraftwerk · Jan 09, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Personally I don't see them needing any major buffs. I do feel that some skills need to be revisited and have some minor adjustments made, but overall I find Mesmers to be powerful/weak based on the situation regardless of PvE or PvP. I could also say the same thing about most other professions, but since I primarily play Mesmers, that's what I'll comment on.

I will say that with some of the more recent changes to a few Mesmer skills, I've been using those skills more like Power Spike, Drain Enchantment. I do think Crippling Anguish could see a drop in energy cost. I would be willing make the tradeoff to increase the recharge on it for a reduction in energy. Energy Surge and Energy Burn got a slight buff recently, I believe, and I think that put it at just the right spot. Chaos storm...well I use it from time to time, but find most of the time I'm wasting energy when I use it.

DRGN · Jan 09, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

And you DEFINITELY need to try a mesmer in RA.

Yeah, a class need a buff because it doesn't function to its fullest in RA.

Let's buff Warriors too, since they get shut down easily in RA by all the mass hexes/blind.

Let's buff Paragons too, since in RA, only having 4 people screws Leadership so they need some buff to compensate.

Or let's, you know, focus on organized PvP, instead of the wahmo arena.

Also, I've gotten glad points as a Mesmer in RA with a mending wahmo, a smiter, and a fire ele, so I don't see how the hell RA can seem like a good argument to anyone with a brain.

Well, to respond to the OP:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical nessAL

All over the time vising GWG I have seen nothing but false stuffs about mesmers about how they weak and stuff. They are not. They are extremely aggresive proff. But something is missing, what could it be? Oh yeah, small over-powered elites as every proff has. Like DS for warr, WoH for monk, SF for ele, SS for necro and more.

It's a small list of elites that should be abit buffed / changed;

[E] (all max attrib) (Please note The following elites are discriptions of what added to it, not it's fully use)

Ineptitude - this spell now interrupts the foes attack aswell.
Energy Surge - Target foe and all nearby foes loses 8 energy, for each energy lost on target foe that way, all nearby foes takes 12 dmg.
Mantra of Recovery - give back it's 55% speed, increase recharge abit. EDIT: Any ideas on how to improve it? Obviously it isnt in it's best at the moment.
Crippling Anguish - decrease recharge time to 15 seconds.
Psychic Instability - Target foe suffers 53 dmg and is knocked down every time that foe is interrupted
Stolen Speed - Target foe casts 50% slower EDIT: Would be too overpowered on spamming. Increase recharge time to 10 secs.

Looks like it for a while. Their might be some overpowered elites here and there... Some shouldnt cause anything but more enjoyable moments of the skill. If any of the following are abit overpowered in it's buff, please explain.
I'm sorry for the low english.
Discuss.

As someone said about MoR, it would make them increase recharge of other spells(That's why Diversion went from 10s to 12s recharge, IIRC). The E-Surge buff would make it a pre-nerf Signet of Weariness effect on top of the AoE damage. It's used enough as it is, does it really need anything else? Plus, how would that help in PvE, which is the place where Mesmers could probably use a bit of help? Unless you're farming, E-denial = fail in PvE. I guess the CA buff could be useful, though I doubt that'd make it see more play. The same goes for Instability.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

I like how one move by a mesmer (or a succession of moves) in PvP can force wipes and win matches. Really, all ANet need to do imo is buff some of the inspiration spells so monks can bring other types of energy management instead of GolE.

Yeah, we kinda brought that on ourselves by abusing the hell out of it. >_____> I guess it wouldn't be as bad because you wouldn't have a bunch of boonies running around spamming it, but when they kill something, they tend to leave it dead, especially considering how long Inspiration was used. I agree it'd be nice to have back, and it does kinda suck that Mesmers pay the price for it, but I'm not banking on it happening.

tmr819 · Jan 09, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I'd like for mesmers to have...
...at least one skill which causes Daze (preferrably an interrupt, preferrably AoE).
...lower recharge on the interrupts (so they can compete with rangers).
...Spiteful Spirit (what's it doing in Curses when it's clearly the bigger brother of Empathy? In return necros get Epidemic, which is based on conditions and therefore doesn't belong with mesmers.)
...2-3 conditional AoE spells. AoE is king in PvE.

I completely agree with this post. I have played a monk, ranger, warrior, elementalist, and mesmer entirely through Factions. What I observed was...

(1) The mesmer had the hardest time finding groups -- not just harder but much harder.
(2) The mesmer died most often of the five characters, though I tried a wide variety of builds. In fact, my builds started looking so "elemental" that I figured, heck, why not just play my elementalist?
(3) When things get "hot", the mesmer -- unlike other "squishies" -- has no way (that I know of anyway) to drive off a swarm of attackers. Yes, you can do a lot with your secondary, but a class should really be able to hold its own with its own skills -- or it isn't much of a class, in my opinion.
(4) The mesmer had the hardest time hero/henching the missions (which he usually ended up doing anyway

due to observation 1 above).
(5) For reasons 1 to 4, I'd say the mesmer was the most challenging and (at times

) least fun of the five characters to play. I brought him over to EotN but got fed up with him because his defensive abilities just seemed so weak and his offensive abilities seemed so ... slow and indirect. A skill such as [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] really belongs in the mesmer branch of skills, in my opinion.

I can't speak to PvP, but for PvE, this is what I encountered. I had fun with the mesmer, but the continual stomping I received (raptor swarms, lol

) just got ... really old.

I have a lot of respect for the class and for people who play it well, but I found the mesmer class to be, ultimately, just not that great.

the_jos · Jan 09, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

.... Some words about his/her experience with mesmers

While I do see the points you have, my personal experience is different.
Harder to team? Yes. But the teams I got into were mostly more organized and success most of the time. So for me that does not matter that much.
And the desperate team invites I sometimes get are funny to join when I'm up for some fun and have some spare time. It's in those teams an experienced player, even if it's a mesmer, can make a difference.
Died more often? Happens most of the time due to bad team/skill setup and not because of the mesmer profession. Especially when playing with H&H.
Unable to deal with swarm of attackers? Yes, part of it is the PvE mesmer problem, huge mobs and no large number of AoE spells. However, with a decent team, knowledge of the enemies and good choice of skills this should not be too much of a problem.
Hardest time H&H? Teaming problem, not mesmer problem.
SS as mesmer skill? Please

In the end: mesmer class not that great?
While mesmer is my main character, I do have to agree on this one for some part.
I can do everything I can better with other professions perhaps using x/Me for some specific skills. I can run Ne/Me with full mesmer bar and benefit from Soul Reaping. The difference between 12 and 14 on Dom/Ill is not that huge. Or run E/Me with the same type of bar and benefit from E-storage. The lack of FC is compensated by inherited E-mgt.
It's also easier to join the average PuG with most other professions.
And the game is more tuned to nuking or heavy melee than target specific shutdown, which is what the mesmer is best at.

The only reasonable buffs I can think of would be making some inspiration skills linked to or benefit more from FC for better e-mgt.
Most other buffs in favor of the PvE (specific AoE or shutdown) mesmer could overpower mesmers in PvP and need carefull consideration.
And those are not mesmer problems but generic design problems that need more work than just buffing the mesmer (and assassin).

Gregslot · Jan 09, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Well, i do agree that Stolen Speed needs some buff.
You CANT spam that much, you would need a lot of fast casting to keep it at 3 targets, and at the end you wont need it because you will have about 14 fast casting.

Anyways... there is nothing wrong with mesmer at PvE.
The real problem is that most of Elite Areas... wait, who am i trying o fool? ALL Elite Areas at pve FAVOR the Tank, Nuke & Heal strategy.

None of these "Elite Areas" require skill or a decent strategy.
These areas are filled with ignorantly large mobs with massive damage but at the end they can be overrun by getting them all at a corner with a "super tank" and use Meteor Shower. And thats the only way it can be done.

You CANT get balanced group to fight a group of 15 level 26 with cross-profession skills, nice heal, interrupts, wards and etc. Its just impossible. Even with 2 monks, 1 para and 1 rit you defenses wont last enought to kill them, the damage just wont be enough to breakthrought all the heal and everything.
And remmeber that even the tank, nuke and heal can still find some trouble on taking out some of them because they can heal and prot handsomely. So if it can be hard for the appealing strategy (wich is based on doing massive damage) why wont be hard for the balanced group, wich is balanced?

And dont think that the mesmers are the only ones that suffer from this... Assassins, Paragons, Dervishes, Ritualists also do. Today the end-game is based on Warriors, Eles and Monks... the game just favors them... thats a fact.

The end-game favored the holy trinity at Sorrow's Furnace, the end-game favored the holy trinity at Urgoz and The Deep, the end-game favored the holy trinity at DoA and the end-game favored the holy trinity at Slaver's Exile.
Thats just what it is...

They didint changed the type of end-game at any of the chapters or the expansion even knowing that the type they exposed favored only 3 classes, at this point i can say "they really dont care".

They could have made smaller and powerfull mobs, like mini-bosses, level 33 monsters with monster-only skills or 3 classes skills... something to really test the players skills... but they didint. They insisted on making ridiculously large mobs because at their opinion, thats what we will like... well... at least the holy trinity will like.

No, the problems isnt within the classes, the problem is the type of content they offer us... wich has been the same since sorrows furnace. DoA resumes the whole game.

Painbringer · Jan 09, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Edit - Overall The Mesmer is one of the fun classes to play. It takes a lot of knowledge and skill. Not the select target space 123. Strategies change on the fly skills need some skill to use etc.. Playing one can make you a better player. I think the problem with the Mesmer is it was set to play PVP / 1vs1 and the prophesies campaign is as close to that as you can get. When Faction came out the Mesmer was a bit set back. The AI on monsters got better the skills on monsters got better and the overall play got a little more challenging and the group size got bigger. Then Nightfall came out the same thing happened again larger groups and more dmg output. This is a limiting factor for the Mesmer is they have only a few skills that work against a group, and almost no skills that other party members directly see as help to the group (example: Watch yourself, Aegis, Well of blood, etc…) The EOTN is an expansion that sorta solved the problem for the mesmer smaller yet very powerful groups which are closer to 1vs1. The Mesmer can shine. I personally like posts like the OP set out there. It lets me brainstorm a little the big question is does A-net listen to complaints about the Mesmer ?

End of edit

My thoughts

Ineptitude - this spell now interrupts the foes attack aswell.

I like it as it is

Energy Surge - Target foe and all nearby foes loses 8 energy, for each energy lost on target foe that way, all nearby foes lose ½ the energy that target foe lost and take 12 dmg for each point lost this way. Recharge would have to reflect and be lengthened.

Mantra of Recovery - give back it's 55% speed, increase recharge abit. EDIT: Any ideas on how to improve it? Obviously it isnt in it's best at the moment.

Leave the speed the same but change it this way when mantra ends all skills are recharged mantra is disabled for 5 seconds for each skill recharged

Crippling Anguish - decrease recharge time to 15 seconds. (this one bothers me the degen is weak)

I would say leave the same but increase degeneration

Psychic Instability - Target foe suffers 53 dmg and is knocked down every time that foe is interrupted

Target foe and foes adjacent to that foe suffer knock down and dmg (it is an elite that needs to be trigger by an interrupt it should be Nasty)

Stolen Speed - Target foe casts 50% slower EDIT: Would be too overpowered on spamming. Increase recharge time to 10 secs.

Target foes skills cast 50% slower (stances of course would remain the same)